Curse

kaldak · Dec 04, 2007, 02:23 AM // 02:23

what always baffles me, is why do people spend their time whining about this? its pve! if you think its so awful, just dont bring a paragon along. let those of us who enjoy them hold onto the one or two viable builds we still have left...

Avarre · Dec 04, 2007, 02:26 AM // 02:26

1) Paragons are ridiculously powerful professions in both PvE and PvP.

2) Vocal Minority is a terrible skill and suggesting it nullifies Paragons as a counter completely destroys your credibility. It's horrible unless you're running a hex-heavy group. Likewise, saying anti-melee/shout hexes shut down Paragons is an idiotic argument, because any hex stacks that overload hex removal imply the group composition is hex-heavy anyways, removing the need for mass Paragon armor buffs in the first place.

3) PvE skills. This is the result of PvE players wanting to have their own skills? Way to go, guys. Can we have them removed now?

street peddler · Dec 04, 2007, 02:29 AM // 02:29

luv da paragons

Crom The Pale · Dec 04, 2007, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

1) Paragons are ridiculously powerful professions in both PvE and PvP.

2) Vocal Minority is a terrible skill and suggesting it nullifies Paragons as a counter completely destroys your credibility. It's horrible unless you're running a hex-heavy group. Likewise, saying anti-melee/shout hexes shut down Paragons is an idiotic argument, because any hex stacks that overload hex removal imply the group composition is hex-heavy anyways, removing the need for mass Paragon armor buffs in the first place.

3) PvE skills. This is the result of PvE players wanting to have their own skills? Way to go, guys. Can we have them removed now?

Paragons are only powerful when using PvE only skills, there normal skills are no better than a protection monks.

Vocal Minority is a fantastic skill for shuting down Paragons, you dont need a hex heavy party to use it, a single SS necro can use it and keep a paragon useless.

PvE skills are for PvE, where people value having fun over being frustrated with PUGs and insane monster only skills that require a glitch to beat.

GIVE US MORE PvE SKILLS!!!!

Avarre · Dec 04, 2007, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

Paragons are only powerful when using PvE only skills, there normal skills are no better than a protection monks.

So you're saying I can have the defense of a prot monk and the offense of a Warrior on the same character? Not exactly helping your case.

Quote:

Vocal Minority is a fantastic skill for shuting down Paragons, you dont need a hex heavy party to use it, a single SS necro can use it and keep a paragon useless.

If you don't have a hex-heavy party, VM won't stick. Hex removal isn't meant to try to counter hex load, but to remove key priority hexes to reduce the overall effectiveness. VM is an extremely high priority to remove. A 'single SS necro' would not be able to keep VM on a Paragon because of hex removal.

That's why nobody cares about the mobs that use VM in DoA.

Quote:

PvE skills are for PvE, where people value having fun over being frustrated with PUGs and insane monster only skills that require a glitch to beat.

GIVE US MORE PvE SKILLS!!!!

If you're using a glitch to beat something, then there's room for player improvement, not more PvE skill crutches.

That said, most of the monster skills can join PvE skills in deletion.

GloryFox · Dec 04, 2007, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Quote:

1) Paragons are ridiculously powerful professions in both PvE and PvP.

Yes this is why "GLF Paragon" on every chat channel in every town.

Savio · Dec 04, 2007, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

Yes this is why "GLF Paragon" on every chat channel in every town.

Because your average PvErs are geniuses when it comes to planning groups.

1 up and 2 down · Dec 04, 2007, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

I woulda named mine "Magnum X X L" without a moment's hesitation.

LOL!

Nice one.

YunSooJin · Dec 04, 2007, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by You can't see me

Just as I can go arounf spewing +1's without any thought to random posts saying "nEwB you HAV3 n0 p0in7 STfU", and yet I don't, as you should refrain from doing the same.

As for the PvP side, care to back it up, instead of insulting the idea like an idiot? You obviously never tried the skill in PvP and therefore have nothing to back up your point.

By the way, you totally missed that weapon spells have no means of removal, when you said that shouts are the only thing. Using your logic, I can claim ritualists are over powered because there is no way to remove them, however, they are spells, and can be shut down with many skills. Shouts can be entirely shut down, however, with two skills, that are indeed far more than a joke.

I bring up the PvE skills because that's the main thing people are arguing about back and forth about. You're kind of missing the point here.

I'm done debating with you. You don't even back up your point with any solid fact. Your post is just a QQ on shouts.

Response:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

1) Paragons are ridiculously powerful professions in both PvE and PvP.

2) Vocal Minority is a terrible skill and suggesting it nullifies Paragons as a counter completely destroys your credibility. It's horrible unless you're running a hex-heavy group. Likewise, saying anti-melee/shout hexes shut down Paragons is an idiotic argument, because any hex stacks that overload hex removal imply the group composition is hex-heavy anyways, removing the need for mass Paragon armor buffs in the first place.

3) PvE skills. This is the result of PvE players wanting to have their own skills? Way to go, guys. Can we have them removed now?

Oh, look, I don't even need to 'debate' you, if that's what you call debating. I raised cogent points that other, experienced players can understand and you have the temerity to label it QQing? Seriously, please stop littering the board with your trash and let the people with actually justifiable viewpoints take up a more reasonable argument.

Paragons will continue to be broken from game mechanics and their skills. ANET made a mistake when they put it in, and it's not so easily fixed because of the underlying mechanics. That's the end of the story.

Vinraith · Dec 04, 2007, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

People use "They're On Fire!" when they have "Save Yourselves!" and "There's Nothing to Fear!"?

Save Yourselves is useless, like all allegiance linked skills. I sincerely doubt i'll ever hit rank one in either of those tracks. It's the only skill linked title in the game that doesn't increase through the simple act of playing the game, and I'm certainly not going to sit around and grind the stupid thing.

arsie · Dec 04, 2007, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Save Yourself doesn't make a Paragon much stronger, except for the energy return from Leadership. Save Yourself just impacts on the party less when being used by a Paragon.

The issue with Paragons is that the few skills that are above-par are superb, while the majority of the skills are below-par.

Yeah, any more nerfing of the skill should only happen when the many sub-par skills are brought up to speed.

I think Anet should go look at all the skills that people do not use, and bring them up by 1 small notch, and see what happens.

If Paragons were not so tall they wouldn't show so much leg.

arsie · Dec 04, 2007, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Spears are not just a Paragon thing. They are as useful to a /P as a P/. I've seen almost every other profession wielding spears, at one point or other.

Save Yourselves is nearly as powerful on a spear-wielding W/P as it is on a P/W.

Adrenalin Shouts are as powerful on a /P as it is on a P/, assuming they are able to generate adrenalin as fast. Refer to above.

Energy Shouts is probably the only things that are more powerful on a P/ than on many professions, except professions with great energy management.

So arguably, the only skills that are Paragons benefit more than most primary professions are Leadership Energy skills, particularly Leadership Energy Shouts/Chants.

They are: "Lead the Way!", "Make Your Time!", "They're On Fire!", Anthem of Flame, Anthem of Fury, Defensive Anthem.

Besides "They're On Fire!", Anthem of Flame and Defensive Anthem, I do not see many of the rest seeing regular use by Paragons. So Leadership is very similar to Soul Reaping in this aspect. Great line for energy management, but not as many useful skills. Compare that to primary attribute lines that have great skills. I do not think any more nerfing is in order.

Targuil · Dec 04, 2007, 05:17 AM // 05:17

An armor bonus of 100 reduces armor-affected damage by 82.32%.
GG.

And add they're on fire and there's nothing to fear so you can have imba reduction. HM aatxe hits you like you were ele with all his armors up.

Racthoh · Dec 04, 2007, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlienFromBeyond

Why not? The only place it's not useful is against Destroyers.

You could use that slot to bring something a lot more useful.

Arkantos · Dec 04, 2007, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Quote:

Paragons are only powerful when using PvE only skills, there normal skills are no better than a protection monks.

Because prot monks can use a bunch of party wide unremovable shouts that cost little to no energy, some even giving you energy. Right?

Quote:

Yes this is why "GLF Paragon" on every chat channel in every town.

Ever thought that pugs are stupid and only want to have a warriors eles and monks in their party?

Esan · Dec 04, 2007, 05:36 AM // 05:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

3) PvE skills. ... Can we have them removed now?

I won't shed a tear for the ridiculous PvE-only skills, but some of the others are fairly decent even for PvP. For example, "Dodge This!" (the nature of adrenaline makes this only useful for interrupting through Guardian), Triple Shot (might reinvigorate a moribund ranger spike, which is a flavor I am starting to miss in recent months), "I Am The Strongest!" (what Signet of Strength should have been), Black Powder Mine (a non-elite blinding trap that, except for recharge, is less powerful than Dust Trap), and Sneak Attack (the only non-bleeding lead attack, which might actually make leads useful).

Avarre · Dec 04, 2007, 05:40 AM // 05:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

I won't shed a tear for the ridiculous PvE-only skills, but some of the others are fairly decent even for PvP. For example, "Dodge This!" (the nature of adrenaline makes this only useful for interrupting through Guardian), Triple Shot (might reinvigorate a moribund ranger spike, which is a flavor I am starting to miss in recent months), "I Am The Strongest!" (what Signet of Strength should have been), Black Powder Mine (a non-elite blinding trap that, except for recharge, is less powerful than Dust Trap), and Sneak Attack (the only non-bleeding lead attack, which might actually make leads useful).

I think it would be fair if the reasonable PvE skills were made into standard skills and balanced accordingly.

Vinraith · Dec 04, 2007, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

3) PvE skills. This is the result of PvE players wanting to have their own skills? Way to go, guys. Can we have them removed now?

People wanted a higher level cap, reward for time played rather than skill, and these are how Anet caved to that demand. I don't like them much either, but the problem's going to get worse, not better.

Bryant Again · Dec 04, 2007, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinraith

People wanted a higher level cap, reward for time played rather than skill, and these are how Anet caved to that demand. I don't like them much either, but the problem's going to get worse, not better.

It's (part of?) Anet's way of catering to the MMO crowd.

...which is downright silly and doesn't do a whole lot more than hurt the overall game.

Redfeather1975 · Dec 04, 2007, 05:52 AM // 05:52

I always thought PvE only skills, and consumables were introduced because the devs couldn't balance PvE to be equally challenging for all professions.
When you are playing PvE and people would rather not have you just because of your prof, things aren't being designed right. Online rpgs shouldn't allow that to happen for as long as it has been in GW. The fact GW isn't pay to play and has no differentiation between PvE rules and PvP rules is probably why PvE is so inconsistent in terms of balance.
Adding PvE only skills and consumables may have been an attempt to correct that without fudging up PvP.